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Post by mimisthesc on Aug 11, 2019 13:49:47 GMT 1
same goes for Finland with their usually successful rock entries
Regarding the discussion that's already started and seems to be going on at the moment, I have to say I agree with Florian. Some bigger countries surely have bigger and more developed music industries and can send big artists with worldwide hits. Especially when we're talking about 2000's songs, since many of the players are quite young here, they surely know those songs much better than they would know for instance an 80's song from any other country and by some singer they've never heard of. This already gives an advantage to those countries and after all, I don't think those songs are the only ones they have. The problem arises from the fact people support this kind of entries, which is something that cannot be prevented as nobody can tell people how to vote, but some of the ideas suggested by Florian could be applied, just so that everyone stands fairer chances of doing well. At this point, if 2-3 countries send a well-known song from the 00's in the same edition and judging by the voting trends that seem to be going on, although entering the TOP 10 is perfectly doable, a TOP 5 result seems to be almost impossible for many countries. And yes, just like everyone else, so am I hoping and aiming for a good result, because if everyone here was participating just in order to discover new music and share original entries, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Well atleast that is one thing i am good at searching being a fan of the genre i feel like i can definitely do better with them overall than most of the time with pop entries i pick no matter the contest. So i guess it is kind of my specialty contest-wise haha it was not originally intended to be sent actually but i wanted to make a tribute so Also i agree on your points here. Feeling also like i am partly guilty of this not denying that but that is only because i grew up with music from 2000s so most of my favorites, childhood songs and the most memorable ones for me personally come from that time period which is why i send them most of the time because it is the time period i am mostly familiar with i try to avoid sending mostly popular acts, ofc doing it from time to time to not make it "boring". But yeah i think that 2-3 editions having to send older songs would be interesting to have indeed most of the people seem to agree as well Well if Finland is known for a specific music genre, as far as I know, that'd probs be rock music Nice to know you agree and to be honest there is no reason to feel guilty of anything; after all, I mentioned that nobody can really tell people how to vote and everyone's got their own criteria. I also grew up listening to many of the songs that have taken part but I don't necessarily vote for them actually. It just depends on the song and on the competition of course.
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Post by Laurinda on Aug 11, 2019 14:40:14 GMT 1
An interesting conversation has sparked around here. And yes, just like everyone else, so am I hoping and aiming for a good result, because if everyone here was participating just in order to discover new music and share original entries, we wouldn't be having this discussion. Usually, everyone is trying to do their best rather than just sending anything. Mostly I just take note of what people like. What's the point of sending something nobody cares about? Obviously, there are other criteria deciding what to send, and eventually, some songs are sent just because I like them. But if it's last, I wouldn't send something like that again, because I was given to know it's not what people want to hear. Let us first ask ourselves what is retro?I found a definition that goes as follows, relating to, reviving, or being the styles and especially the fashions of the past : fashionably nostalgic or old-fashioned. It is mostly focused on fashion, but it doesn't state how old anything must be to be considered retro. I think, especially music becomes old very quickly. Changing the song age limitI've thought about this many times, and I've always come to the same conclusion. You can't take something away you've already given. That would be only in a severe case, which I don't think this contest could get to. Having players to send older songs a few editions per decadeI do not oppose to this suggestion and it might be implemented in the future. Personally I have been trying to send a song from 2000s and a song from before 2000s interchangeably (sometimes it didn't work because of the special editions), but lately I've let that go mostly because I've send most of what I intended to (evergreens and other national hits). Not to mention that older songs do significantly worse that than anything else. Even worse than some risky genres. I'm not sure what happened, because in the early editions old song also did well (not just old international hits). Thanks for the suggestions, I'll think about them.
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Post by italix on Aug 11, 2019 14:49:31 GMT 1
For many reasons, I'm against a rule that would forbid us to use songs that are between 10 and 15 years old. I will only mention a few of them:
1) This rule wouldn't prevent from having a bunch of massive worldwide hits in one edition. 2) It would completely ruin the work of players who searched songs from 2009-2011. 3) Players who used artists who began their career 10 years ago would have to wait 5 more years before being able to send them back. It would be quite unrealistic and in addition we can be sure that in 2024 we would have almost complete "2009 songs editions". So what would we do? Change the rules again and disallow songs younger than 20 years? 4) The main contest is less than 10 years old. It means that ten year old songs were barely used in the main contest and since we mainly see brand new songs in it, it will probably stay like this. So many songs of that period would stay completely unknown on the forum for five more years. There is even a risk that they would finally be completely ruined because a talentless singer from whatever country would release a cover of it and make the original song completely uneligible forever. 5) The main contest is already quite old and will be 10 years old one day - if it doesn't disappear before that but our problem wouldn't exist either in that case. That means that while we are approaching the 10th anniversary, the proportion of 10 year old songs that have already been used in the main contest is growing.
About quotas for pre-2000s songs: I'm open to the idea but I think that the option of "full pre-2000s editions" is a false good idea. Of course we would have a better equity for old songs in these editions but what about "normal" editions? We clearly would have a much higher proportion of 2000s songs in these editions, because: 1) People would have to keep pre-2000s songs for the special editions. 2) People would think twice before sending a pre-2000s song in a normal edition with a higher proportion of 2000s songs than before. So probably a majority of players would send 2000s songs in normal editions and pre-2000s songs only in special editions.
So in my opinion a better rule would be: "A country is not allowed to send a song released after 1999 [or a song released less than 15 years ago] more than two [or three] times in a row (end of decade editions are not considered). This rule doesn't apply to end of decade editions."
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Post by nijat on Aug 11, 2019 15:11:27 GMT 1
Having players to send older songs a few editions per decadeI do not oppose to this suggestion and it might be implemented in the future. Personally I have been trying to send a song from 2000s and a song from before 2000s interchangeably (sometimes it didn't work because of the special editions), but lately I've let that go. Not to mention that older songs do significantly worse that than anything else. Even worse than some risky genres. I'm not sure what happened, because in the early editions old song also did well (not just old international hits). Exactly my feelings. Previously I used to send 4-5 pre-2000s songs per decade and recently I've only been sending maximum 2 pre-2000s entries for the same timespan (and those have usually not been pre-1990s). In the past, those old entries were much better appreciated compared to nowadays, and I believe possible two reasons for the much focus on more modern music in the contest are: 1) most of the famous old songs were sent by the representatives in earlier editions and perhaps, due to lack of much familiarity with the older music scene, they have run out of choices and therefore, send entries from their childhood, which they prefer and know about more; 2) possibly, because of the player changes? Not sure how much that influenced the situation, notwithstanding. Perhaps there are other factors which contributed to the alteration of the tendency. As Florian mentioned above, the definition of retro varies according to each person, and personally for me, 10-year-old songs do not really feel "retro". Therefore, change in the age limit sounds very good from my standpoint. I am a proponent for another option as well, however, I personally like italix's modificated version better as I believe an idea of full pre-2000s edition runs the risk of lacking diversity. In any case, I would also like to see more retro music in the contest and just wanted to state my opinion about the ongoing discussion.
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Post by Gilberto on Aug 11, 2019 20:00:06 GMT 1
Being completely honest, I'm usually much more inclined to vote for the 'newer' songs as well, not because of the fact that they are new songs, but because I usually like them more So having some kind of rule to make us send older songs would be pretty interesting and I'd be in favour of such concept Just to clarify, by 'such concept' I meant the one that would make us send older songs only in some specific editions, say, a few per decade. Changing the limit to 15 ages is, in my eyes, a little questionable too. While I agree that 2009 songs aren't ''retro'' enough, the reasons stated above by several other players are good enough to overtune that, specially that with such rule we wouldn't prevent having worldwide hits and that players have already planned their future entries not taking this into consideration. I personally I wouldn't have any problem with such new restriction considering ONLY my own research and source of songs, but it'd be unfair for other players and wouldn't solve the main issues at hand. On the topic of preventing big countries from sending well known hits, that's almost impossible. Not giving points to certain songs just because they were famous is very unfair to the players who sent them and goes against the spirit of a song contest- While voting I do struggle with this very often, I say to myself ''well this is an easy win for them, but I like the song so I have to give it points''. I can't thing of any fair solution to avoid having well known songs in here.
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Post by mimisthesc on Aug 11, 2019 20:20:23 GMT 1
Being completely honest, I'm usually much more inclined to vote for the 'newer' songs as well, not because of the fact that they are new songs, but because I usually like them more So having some kind of rule to make us send older songs would be pretty interesting and I'd be in favour of such concept On the topic of preventing big countries from sending well known hits, that's almost impossible. Not giving points to certain songs just because they were famous is very unfair to the players who sent them and goes against the spirit of a song contest- While voting I do struggle with this very often, I say to myself ''well this is an easy win for them, but I like the song so I have to give it points''. I agree that it is certainly not possible to prevent people from sending global hits; after all it's up to each player to decide what their entry will be. Speaking about fairness, on the other hand though, how is sending a global hit considered to be fair against much smaller countries with limited options and without any such songs that could possibly be contenders for a good result? It in't like we haven't seen such examples in the past of course but I guess it's not that frequent. People can anyway vote using their own criteria, that's something not questionable at all, so if anyone feels like supporting any entry or not, no matter if it's known or unknown, they are surely welcome to or not to do so.
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Post by nijat on Aug 11, 2019 20:39:37 GMT 1
^ I feel like you have contradicted yourself. (was for Gilberto)
As regards the avoidance of worldwide hits' participation in this contest, this is something we will never be able to make happen for objective reasons: e.g. Azerbaijan will never be able to send huge stars such as Whitney Houston, Sandra and so forth and hence, to my consideration, any discussion on that topic will remain redundant. I mean, the issue is related to postcolonialism in the liberal market order and therefore is beyond the capacity of this contest to be changed. Therefore, I believe if we're thinking of reforms with regards to the contest rules, we'll need to pay attention to how to encourage the players to send not only songs released after 1999, but also older songs, and therefore, stay in line with the spirit of the contest.
You can argue that the more modern songs become eligible, the bigger the issue of worldwide hits will be in the contest, which is a logical statement. However, as I said above, if we change the rules in order to promote the participation of older songs more and more, no dramatic changes will be recorded with regards to the situation with globally successful singers either (see: initial editions). Thus, I personally do not consider the argument related to international hits convincing as their frequent participation will imo never be prevented. In any case, however, I'll be happy with any of the suggestions put forward, as they aim to involve more and more older songs in the contest.
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Post by Alex Memphis on Aug 12, 2019 0:12:43 GMT 1
Let's get into reacting!
OMG Austria didn't deserve last at all! This really cute song earned my . Very underrated. This song reminded me of 'Warn-U' by Fatima Al-Qadiri (another similar song basically). What I like the most is the sound and the unicity of the song in general. Cool song, but was quite weak compared to the other entries. A bit underrated. He has an incredible voice though. Very catchy one. Definitely my 13th place. This one never caught my attention honestly… better luck next time Armenia… Calm song that gives me relaxing vibes. I'd say it's a bit underrated since it's a top 20 position for me. Expected placement. I really like her voice rather than the song. Expected placement too. This is probably the most underrated song of the edition. I rarely vote for the host country as I never like their entries, but this clearly stood out. Super nostalgic underrated song! This song is amazing and reminds me of my childhood. Deserved at least to be in the top 10. Expected it a bit higher honestly. :/ It's a 15th place for me. Sorry, but I think your entry is overrated. I'm sure you'll send better entries in the future. This grew in me so much during the voting period. They somehow remind me of Linkin Park and Nickelback I don't know why. Amazing one! Liked it since I listened to it for the first time. Oh man probably the most overrated entry of this edition in my opinion. :/ Very deserved placement. Amazing entry! I really like Sabīne's voice. My 12th place. This song reminds me of Düm Tek Tek and has a very cool melody. Would switch it with Montenegro. Very catchy song. I'm happy for your result. Would swap it with Cyprus. Very cool song. Expected it lower honestly. Congratulations on your 10th place! This one was just amazing. I have no words. My winners. Too much nostalgia in one single song. How couldn't Italy not gain a place in my top 10? 'Pensa' is simply a masterpiece. It's an anthem against one of the deadliest plagues affecting Italy, mafia and organized crime in general. Keep on doing well Italy! Another masterpiece sent by our beloved neighbors. What you want me to say? Her voice: probably the best voice of the entire edition, even better than Madonna's in my opinion. The lyrics: even though I don't speak Spanish unfortunately, that doesn't stop me from liking this song even more. Languages are not a problem for me when it comes to music. Very calm song. Would have placed it a bit lower though, but congratulations on your placement! My 11th place. Honestly if I had the opportunity to change my votes, I'd vote for it as it's another song that grew in me a lot and I'm really happy for your 4th place. Not a surprise. Congratulations on your third place achieved with this pretty good song! 'Dog Days Are Over' was better though. Another calm song. I'm really happy for the player, but this song didn't catch my attention when I cast my votes. Thank you guys for this victory! I don't know what to say… I'm so happy I managed to bring the contest back to the US. Tbh, I expected a victory, but I was worried either or would win instead. I also noticed I won with a margin of 61 points and I received 11 sets of . Thank you to for their points, thank you to for your points, thank you to for your points, thank you to for your points and to for your points. See you all guys in another charming US city next edition! My opinion on the discussed topic Tbh, I support the idea of a special edition where we can send older songs once in a while. Most of us, including me, are quite young and they grew up listening to 90s/00s songs, therefore they're more likely to vote for them and to send them. An edition with older songs would be great as it would allow us to listen to and to know older songs. I'd be worried for the countries with limited music industries though.
About the age limit: it should remain 10 years old. If we changed the age limit, most players wouldn't be allowed to send songs that could potentially bring them great results.
Furthermore, I support the rule currently enforced for the eligibility of songs. As Laurinda said, there's no clear definition which states how old something should be to be considered 'retro'. Music tends to get old in a matter of years or even months (today a friend of mine, for instance, called a song from 2017 'old') as newer and newer songs are released every day. I also tend to send songs from the 2000s or the 1990s as the music that defined my childhood was released during these decades. About the 'issue' of Worldwide hits: as the HoD of a powerful country like the United States, that dominated the music scene for many decades and that's the homeland of artists known worldwide, like Madonna, I try to send whatever I like obv and I feel really sorry if I have to be the 'main rival' of countries with smaller music industries (obviously I'm not just talking about myself, I'm also talking about other countries with bigger music industries like or ). Don't worry though, because I'm working on something different for the next editions (basically lesser known songs…).
That's all.
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Post by ᴛᴏᴍ ᴋʟᴏsᴇʀ on Aug 14, 2019 0:59:23 GMT 1
Having myself actually unintentionally sent exactly 50% songs from 2000+ (50) and 50% from 1999- (50) as of Retro #75, I think the rule change would only help the contest rather than hurt. But as italix indicated, I don't think the rule should be imposed on specific editions. Instead, users should be enforced to send songs from 1999 or before (at least) three times per edition. For example, if a user were to send songs from 2000+ from #81 to #86, they would then be required to send 3 from 1999 or before for the next 3 editions (that is if they didn't before). Having an edition exclusive to songs from 1999 or before, or vice versa (or specific decades), could be saved for a special edition. That way, the editions would hopefully be more balanced without the need of overcrowding older/newer songs. Perhaps a poll or survey, as done in the past, would be the best way to find a solution.
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