Tufkai
6 points
he/it
5,998
12,011
There's something in the atmosphere
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Post by Tufkai on Jul 23, 2020 15:57:08 GMT 1
Important announcement
ESCR #36 will be the last edition of ESC Rules Contest for a while. The reason for this is because there is set to be an increase in participants after next edition, and it’s crucial that the spots get filled since countries are supposed to ‘sit out’ each time. I just don’t feel comfortable carrying on with this contest if I don’t know whether I’m able to get 25 participating users in one edition.
But I also don’t want to cancel the contest – I enjoy hosting it, and ending the contest isn’t going to help increase interest, so I have come up with a backup plan…
Intervision Song Festival
Intervision will function just like ESC Rules, with users getting a random country each edition, except the participants will be the Soviet republics, plus their allies. All the rules will be the same as ESCR #36.
The first edition will be set in 1961, but the year will only affect which countries participate (taking into account when they became allies of USSR, and when they first got television). Whoever wins ESCR #36 will automatically get a spot in ISF #01 and be given Poland (since Poland hosted the real Intervision).
Intervision will take place in the same universe as ESC Rules, so ESCR songs cannot be sent in Intervision, or vice versa.
This contest will end when we successfully hold an edition with at least 25 participants. The user who wins the final edition will automatically get a spot in ESCR #37 and the user who won #36 will get their country back for another edition (assuming they are still participating at that point)
Which countries will participate?
The participating countries will be the 15 Soviet republics and the other six countries of the Warsaw Pact. If enough people participate, I will also include the four allies of USSR which had television at the time ( * )
*United Arab Republic - a union between Egypt, Syria and Gaza
What will happen when ESC Rules returns?
ESCR #37 ESCR #37 will have 23 participants. The users who finish in the bottom 7 positions will be required to participate in the pre-qualifying round of ESCR #38.
ESCR #38 The bottom 7 from ESCR #37 will participate in the PQR and be dealt debuting countries. If any of the bottom 7 users withdraw, they will be replaced by the users who finished just above, but be warned that doing so will be resulted in you being greylisted in ESCR #39 (barred from confirming for 24 hours). Only 3 countries will qualify, but the other four users will be re-drawn four new countries and still get to participate in the final.
ESCR #39 The bottom 6 countries from ESCR #38 will be forced to withdraw to make room for debuting countries. Note that this does not mean users will be forced to withdraw – the spots will be ‘first come, first serve’ as usual. ESCR #40 will function in the same way, except there will be 23 participants rather than 25.
ESCR #41 ESCR #41 will have one big pre-qualifier with 29 countries battling for 22 spots. Only the host will automatically make the final. Unlike ESCR #38, where the non-qualifiers will be re-drawn countries, edition #41 is set to have 30 participants. I have a plan to get users to participate for one edition, but I will keep it a secret for now . After this edition, the number of participants will go back down to 25. Please let me know your thoughts about this idea and whether you have any other ideas on how to deal with the shortage of participants
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Post by fabbi on Jul 23, 2020 16:04:34 GMT 1
Sounds creative I'm not that much into the Eastern European countries abd their music industry. That's why I will probably not take part myself though ...
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Post by basil on Jul 23, 2020 17:52:11 GMT 1
sounds exciting!!!
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Post by italix on Jul 23, 2020 18:06:14 GMT 1
The idea is interesting but I think that these two contests are quite different so there will be players that will be interested by only one of them. I also think that it will be more difficult to reach 25 participants for ISF because searching songs is Eastern European countries is more challenging (because of the languages and the alphabets used in these countries). I know that finding something original in these countries is quite difficult.
I think that you should run the two contests "simultaneously". In reality, the phase of confirmations until the deadline for songs for one contest would be the phase of votes until you reveal the results for the other one, and each contest would last twice as long as before - so you wouldn't have more work to do. If each player has more time to find songs, maybe it would help to find more players.
I also think that one reason why some users hesitate to participate is because they think it would be difficult to find songs in a vernacular language for some countries. Maybe you could reintroduce the rule saying that during the first xx hours after you drew the countries, songs in non vernacular languages would be accepted. After 1998, this problem will disappear anyway.
About the way to deal with a situation where there wouldn't be enough participants one edition, I thought about improving the method you introduced that led to the elimination of Italy and Austria this time. I was personally quite annoyed by this situation when I saw that I couldn't have Italy for one of the last opportunities before their long withdrawing while anyone confirming late would be able to claim the coutry - which nobody did, which is quite surprising... The improvement I thought about is the following one: if for example 2 participants are missing, the 4 countries with the worst results would be paired so two players would draw one pair of countries. They would have to choose one song for each country and the other participants would vote in order to eliminate one of them. Then these players would of course keep the winning country for the rest of the edition.
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Post by barovka (sometimes inactive) on Jul 23, 2020 23:31:00 GMT 1
I have mixed feelings about it. Sure i have more experience with Eastern European countries than with West since I mostly get Eastern countries in the contests and therefore i should've love it but at the same time I'm kinda sad since i will miss ESC Rules, not only it was the only contest which i would receive Western countries but also because i loved the concept. 😭
Anyway i will participate.
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Post by barovka (sometimes inactive) on Jul 24, 2020 8:43:59 GMT 1
I also think that it will be more difficult to reach 25 participants for ISF because searching songs is Eastern European countries is more challenging (because of the languages and the alphabets used in these countries). I know that finding something original in these countries is quite difficult. It might apply for Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina & Caucasian countries which have really weak music industries if we exclude ESC/NFs/Music festivals (Kenga Magjike)/diaspora but for the rest of the countries not at all. Especially when we have Latvia which is represented in the online contests mostly by Aminata & NF Rejects, Belarus by ESC singers & rejects ALMOST ALWAYS, Russia by Sergey Lazarev, Polina Gagarina, Zivert & Little Big most of the time, Croatia by Severina & Nina Kraljic and Ukraine by Maruv & Kazka. These countries have way more to offer than ESC singers, NF songs & overused singers. It's just some players are scorewhoring or lazy to search for new music from those countries. If you go deeper you will find gems from every country. Plus in ESC Rules we had Greece & Israel where they doesn't use Latin alphabet and we didn't had any problem. We will not have problems with Eastern European countries too. Sis in ESC Rules we had The Netherlands, Norway & Luxembourg, countries where the vast majority of the singers are singing in English instead of their native languages. I had these 3 countries in ESC Rules i struggled A LOT to find good & non-overused songs in their native languages. Not only because of the limit of choices but also because most of the native language stuff from those 3 countries is really bad and the few good ones are usually overused in the contests. (Especially in The Netherlands) In Eastern Europe there's not such situation. You can find TONNES of songs in native languages from there. It wouldn't been fair imo. For example the Player A gets UK & Italy and the player B gets Malta & Cyprus. What if the Player B doesn't want the countries he got and he's more interested for the other 2 countries instead? The current rule is fair imo. It seems you are bitter just because you didn't get Italy. Many players wanted Italy too but at least they are not pissed when they didn't got it. I know you really love Italian music (i also love Italian music) but ESC Rules is different contest and you can't get everything you want there. You will get different countries and therefore you will discover different music scenes. Tufkai has France in NowNewContest yet he's not pissed when he doesn't receive France & Luxembourg at ESC Rules.
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Post by italix on Jul 24, 2020 12:43:45 GMT 1
I also think that it will be more difficult to reach 25 participants for ISF because searching songs is Eastern European countries is more challenging (because of the languages and the alphabets used in these countries). I know that finding something original in these countries is quite difficult. It might apply for Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina & Caucasian countries which have really weak music industries if we exclude ESC/NFs/Music festivals (Kenga Magjike)/diaspora but for the rest of the countries not at all. Especially when we have Latvia which is represented in the online contests mostly by Aminata & NF Rejects, Belarus by ESC singers & rejects ALMOST ALWAYS, Russia by Sergey Lazarev, Polina Gagarina, Zivert & Little Big most of the time, Croatia by Severina & Nina Kraljic and Ukraine by Maruv & Kazka. These countries have way more to offer than ESC singers, NF songs & overused singers. It's just some players are scorewhoring or lazy to search for new music from those countries. If you go deeper you will find gems from every country. Plus in ESC Rules we had Greece & Israel where they doesn't use Latin alphabet and we didn't had any problem. We will not have problems with Eastern European countries too. Sis in ESC Rules we had The Netherlands, Norway & Luxembourg, countries where the vast majority of the singers are singing in English instead of their native languages. I had these 3 countries in ESC Rules i struggled A LOT to find good & non-overused songs in their native languages. Not only because of the limit of choices but also because most of the native language stuff from those 3 countries is really bad and the few good ones are usually overused in the contests. (Especially in The Netherlands) In Eastern Europe there's not such situation. You can find TONNES of songs in native languages from there. It wouldn't been fair imo. For example the Player A gets UK & Italy and the player B gets Malta & Cyprus. What if the Player B doesn't want the countries he got and he's more interested for the other 2 countries instead? The current rule is fair imo. It seems you are bitter just because you didn't get Italy. Many players wanted Italy too but at least they are not pissed when they didn't got it. I know you really love Italian music (i also love Italian music) but ESC Rules is different contest and you can't get everything you want there. You will get different countries and therefore you will discover different music scenes. Tufkai has France in NowNewContest yet he's not pissed when he doesn't receive France & Luxembourg at ESC Rules. Yugoslavia would probably not take part to ISF since it's already in ESCRC - and by the way I don't agree with the fact that these countries have "weak" music industry, with one exception (Montenegro). For the rest, as I host(ed) different countries that use Cyrillic, I can tell that finding informations about the singers is sometimes really difficult (and almost impossible if you can't read Cyrillic). Many artists don't have a personal Youtube channel, many artists use a stage name, and in many cases you can't find personal informations about the singer below the video. So you have to dig further in order to see if your singer is Russian, Ukrainian or something else. Sometimes you can find external sources about the artists but quite often, these sources are only available in Russian, and if you can't recognise the name of a city or something like that you'll have to use Google Translate, which can become rapidly boring. You also have to deal with the fact that a name mayhave different spellings. For example, the singer Alena Lanskaya is written Алена Ланская in Belarusian but Алёна Ланская in Russian (which gives Alyona Lanskaya in Latin alphabet). In that case the difference is not enormous but it's bigger for Katerina Biehu, whose name is spelled Екатерина Бегу or Kатерина Бегу (so Ekaterina/Katerina Begu) in Cyrillic alphabet.
Don't also forget that we could also have Romania and Moldova in ISC, and again, as I hosted Romania many times, I can tell you that this is also a big mess (inherited from WW2). Mihai could explain this much better than myself but basically, you have the country called Moldova but also a region of Romania called Moldova, and Moldovan people who have Moldovan citizenship, ethnically Moldovan people that have Romanian citizenship and of course ethnically Romanian people that have Moldovan citizenship. About the language, Moldovan is so close to Romanian that the fact that these would be two different languages is highly debatable - I'm not an expert so I won't try to give an answer. I hosted Romania many times and these tricky details already tore my brain a couple of times...
Tajkistan is also a quite interesting case, because the official language of the country is Tajik, which is close to... Farsi... So you may encounter names in Cyrillic alphabet but also in Persian alphabet, and as former host of Tajikistan and current host of Afghanistan, I can tell you that identifying who is from Tajikistan, Afghanistan or Iran is quite a nightmare. Plus the fact that the other main language of Afghanistan is Pashto language, which is also spoken in Pakistan... And don't forget that Afghanistan used to be a communist country as well...
And of course if you draw an Arabic country, it will be quite difficult too for obvious reasons. Especially if South Yemen joins the contest - what only a few people know, is that Yemen used to be divided in two parts (until the fall of USSR), and that South Yemen was a communist country. And of course, Sanaa, by far the biggest city of Yemen, was in North Yemen (or it wouldn't be funny...).
So it's slightly more difficult than for Israel, because there is only one coutry in the world that uses Hebrew alphabet. I agree that hosting Cyprus is quite difficult too, even for someone who can read Greek alphabet. I remember one time I drew Cyprus in a similar contest on Youtube and I became crazy because all the Greek Cypriot singers are mixed with Greek singers - I didn't find any Cypriot label. Same for Turkish Cypriot singers - even if it wouldn't be logical to use them for a contest like ESCRC. To come back to former Soviet Republic, these issues might be the reason why many hosts of former Soviet Republics send the same artists most of the time (or "new" artists sent by other people). From the point of vue of someone who knows these music industries quite well - I started searching music from there in the early years of Youtube - the situation is quite strange because some very known singers are completely ignored while some others are used all the time, and sometimes singers jump from the first to the second category without any reason. One example is Olya Polyakova, who I personally know since 2011, when she released 90-60-90.
By the way, there is another potential issue with the language rule. First example with Latvia. A majority of Latvian singers use Latvian, which is the only official language of the country. But some of them use Russian instead, because they have their career in Russia and/or are from Russian roots. I chose the example of Latvia because Latvian is the main language of only 62% of the population. Russian, despite not being an official language in Latvia, is the main language of 37% of the population and 8% of these people don't even speak Latvian. So the question is: should Russian be considered as a vernacular language for Latvia? But let's take another example: Ukraine. Ukraine also has a large part of Russian speakers among its population, and many Ukrainian singers use Russian (sometimes also Russian and Ukrainian), and there is another issue here because Russian and Ukrainian are very close to each other, at least phonetically (same for Russian and Belarusian for example). Unless you actually speak the language, or you have a reliable information saying in what language the lyrics are, you can't be sure. The only exception is when you see special letters in the titlle of the song. For example if you see a "i" or a "ï" for an Ukrainian singer you can assume that the language is Ukrainian since the "I" letter disappeared from the Russian Cyrillic alphabet. Same for a Kazakh singer if you see the letters "Ә" or "Ң" (not "Н"), which are used in Kazakh but not in Russian. But these are really tricky details and we can't ask to every player to learn every Cyrillic alphabet. So I think that we should avoid this problem and consider Russian as a vernacular language for every Soviet Republic (as it was the official language of USSR). But again we come back to the point that even if you are sure that the lyrics of a song are in Russian, or that the artist communicates in Russian on VK, you can't assume that the singer is from Russia, he/she can be from any Soviet Republic. But it doesn't completely solve the problem since there are tons of ehnic groups in Russia, each one with its own language, so, in particular if you choose folk songs, you'll find entries in Tatar, Bashkir, Uralic languages - and some of them are NOT from USSR -, Lemko - spoken in Czechoslovakia, Poland and Ukraine -, Chuvash, and many many many many others - look at the administrative map of Russia, it's completely insane...
About Italy, I knew that the country would be available only four more times (1991, 1992, 1993 and 1997) before his comeback in 2011 so when I saw that one of the rare remaining opportunities to draw it disappeared just like that, and that actually I would have had the opportunity to take it if I hadn't confirmed, I thought that something was wrong with that rule. It gives a reward to someone who didn't confirm on time among people who did confim before the deadline. It could even encourage people to not confirm next time and wait until the list of abandoned countries is revealed and pick one of them with a song ready to use. It would even allow nasty tactics with players not confirming on purpose because they know that some countries they found good songs for are low in the rankings so they prefer waiting them to become free to take. If everyone thinks like this, this is just a first ask, first served rule. I'm fine with the fact of not drawing Italy everytime but a random country, and I never sabotaged a country because I didn't want it, but seeing another player drawing Italy and seeing the country completely eliminated even before the draw are two completely different things. And by the way, Italy is not mandatorily the country I want the most here, because there are also countries that I don't have the opportunity to host and/or countries that I'd like to host again and have a better result (like Turkey before I won with it) and/or countries for those I found songs I'd like to use somewhere. With Italy it's a bit different because even if I hosted the country in every contest, I would still have to eliminate most of my potential entries. So one song doesn't make a huge difference.
My idea was also to give a little advantage to the players who would have drawn the countries with the worst results. Clearly, it was not in order to give a second completely random country to two players, but to give the four countries with the worst results to two players (and each one would have finally kept only one country after the duel between their two songs). In that case, the four countries would have been Italy (sum of the last 5 rankings: 75), Austria (73), Switzerland (72) and Cyprus or Netherlands (both have 68). And with that rule, players know that if they don't confirm on time, they'll be out (unless one player forgets to submit a song before the deadline). The ultimate irony with Italy is that the country is obliged to sit out for the same year it hosted the real contest...
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Post by ferrygraf on Jul 24, 2020 13:33:08 GMT 1
Sounds interesting, I might return and join it
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Tufkai
6 points
he/it
5,998
12,011
There's something in the atmosphere
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Post by Tufkai on Jul 24, 2020 17:15:02 GMT 1
A majority of Latvian singers use Latvian, which is the only official language of the country. But some of them use Russian instead, because they have their career in Russia and/or are from Russian roots. I chose the example of Latvia because Latvian is the main language of only 62% of the population. Russian, despite not being an official language in Latvia, is the main language of 37% of the population and 8% of these people don't even speak Latvian. So the question is: should Russian be considered as a vernacular language for Latvia? All of the Soviet republics will be allowed to sing in Russian (regardless of whether Russian is an official language there today) so this won't be a problem
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Post by barovka (sometimes inactive) on Jul 24, 2020 19:13:19 GMT 1
It might apply for Albania, Kosovo, Serbia, Montenegro, Bosnia and Herzegovina & Caucasian countries which have really weak music industries if we exclude ESC/NFs/Music festivals (Kenga Magjike)/diaspora but for the rest of the countries not at all. Especially when we have Latvia which is represented in the online contests mostly by Aminata & NF Rejects, Belarus by ESC singers & rejects ALMOST ALWAYS, Russia by Sergey Lazarev, Polina Gagarina, Zivert & Little Big most of the time, Croatia by Severina & Nina Kraljic and Ukraine by Maruv & Kazka. These countries have way more to offer than ESC singers, NF songs & overused singers. It's just some players are scorewhoring or lazy to search for new music from those countries. If you go deeper you will find gems from every country. Plus in ESC Rules we had Greece & Israel where they doesn't use Latin alphabet and we didn't had any problem. We will not have problems with Eastern European countries too. Sis in ESC Rules we had The Netherlands, Norway & Luxembourg, countries where the vast majority of the singers are singing in English instead of their native languages. I had these 3 countries in ESC Rules i struggled A LOT to find good & non-overused songs in their native languages. Not only because of the limit of choices but also because most of the native language stuff from those 3 countries is really bad and the few good ones are usually overused in the contests. (Especially in The Netherlands) In Eastern Europe there's not such situation. You can find TONNES of songs in native languages from there. It wouldn't been fair imo. For example the Player A gets UK & Italy and the player B gets Malta & Cyprus. What if the Player B doesn't want the countries he got and he's more interested for the other 2 countries instead? The current rule is fair imo. It seems you are bitter just because you didn't get Italy. Many players wanted Italy too but at least they are not pissed when they didn't got it. I know you really love Italian music (i also love Italian music) but ESC Rules is different contest and you can't get everything you want there. You will get different countries and therefore you will discover different music scenes. Tufkai has France in NowNewContest yet he's not pissed when he doesn't receive France & Luxembourg at ESC Rules. Yugoslavia would probably not take part to ISF since it's already in ESCRC - and by the way I don't agree with the fact that these countries have "weak" music industry, with one exception (Montenegro). For the rest, as I host(ed) different countries that use Cyrillic, I can tell that finding informations about the singers is sometimes really difficult (and almost impossible if you can't read Cyrillic). Many artists don't have a personal Youtube channel, many artists use a stage name, and in many cases you can't find personal informations about the singer below the video. So you have to dig further in order to see if your singer is Russian, Ukrainian or something else. Sometimes you can find external sources about the artists but quite often, these sources are only available in Russian, and if you can't recognise the name of a city or something like that you'll have to use Google Translate, which can become rapidly boring. You also have to deal with the fact that a name mayhave different spellings. For example, the singer Alena Lanskaya is written Алена Ланская in Belarusian but Алёна Ланская in Russian (which gives Alyona Lanskaya in Latin alphabet). In that case the difference is not enormous but it's bigger for Katerina Biehu, whose name is spelled Екатерина Бегу or Kатерина Бегу (so Ekaterina/Katerina Begu) in Cyrillic alphabet.
Well the problem is when they send songs who are original & more represantive to their actual music scenes they flop REALLY hard -Albania gets high results mostly by Diaspora singers, ESC/FIK singers and Kenga Magjike songs -Kosovo gets high results only with Mimoza, Dua Lipa, Rita Ora and other diaspora singers -Bosnia and Herzegovina is a different case, despite the country has strong diaspora they get better results with native singers than with diaspora. The problem might be that the best stuff from there is usually overused in the contests. Plus BiH unlike the rest of Ex-Yugo doesn't take part in ESC anymore so ofc we will see more original stuff from there. -Serbia gets high results mostly by diaspora & ESC-Related singers. The only time which i saw Serbia doing well without Diaspora/ESC Related singers in the contests during the last years were with Luke Black, Anastasija & Marija iirc. -Armenia gets high results mostly by ESC Singers & diaspora and in the past with Lilit Hovhannisyan but she's not really used in the contests anymore -Georgia gets high results almost always with singers who are based abroad, rarely with singers who are based in Georgia -Azerbaijan is probably the most hopeless country in the Caucasus. In the past i remember Azerbaijan doing well in the contests with Nikki Jamal, Eldar, Safura, Rilaya, Latifa Suyuoz & Emin but nowadays they flop even with ESC singers At least Armenia has Iveta & Sirusho and Georgia has Tamta & Yaseniya who are usually scoring well. Azerbaijan has Samra & Efendi which are usually flopping in the contests unlike Iveta, Sirusho, Tamta & Yaseniya. The only country which is worse than them is Latvia which ALWAYS does well only with one singer (Aminata). / / are not the only countries which needs a lot of research if the the singer is one of those countries. I also had that problem with / / , / , / , / / / / / , / / , / / / , / which you already mentioned, / & / . Not to mention Spanish & Arabic speaking countries where many countries use these 2 languages and therefore you need a lot of research from which country is each singer. And about the recycling singers. The Soviet countries are not the only one who have that problem. Norway & Slovakia also have that problem (I can't remember how many times i saw Dagny, Aurora, Alan Walker, Ina Wroldsen, Ruben & Sigrid for Norway and Celeste Buckingham, Kristina, Lina Mayer & Emma Drobna for Slovakia) Not to mention Ireland, USA & UK who are usually represented by Worldwide known singers. Also in the past we had Sweden which until few years ago was represented mostly by MF songs, worldwide known singers or ESC/MF singers. Thankfully the trend was decreased in the last 2 years. And about why some popular singers are ignored in the contests, it happens with all the countries. For example Evangelia - Pame pame which is used a lot in the contests lately is unknown for the 99% of Greeks and songs which are actual hits in Greece are rarely participating in the contests. It's also because of the genres. A pop, latin, indie or rock (genres who are usually doing well in the contests) local hit is more likely to be overused in the contests than a hip-hop, schlager or folk (genres who are usually doing badly in the contests) local hit. That's why we rarely see Balkan countries with turbofolk/chalga/laiko/tallava/manele songs, Germany/Sweden/The Netherlands with schlager and Poland with disco polo in the online contests It's more easy to find singers from the Country Moldova than the Romanian Moldova. I have Moldova in 1 FB contest and i can confirm it. However many Moldovan singers are based in Romania so it might be hard to find if a singer is Romanian or Moldovan because some artists are hiding their real nationality/homeland and for info they just put "Based in Bucharest". Tajikistan uses Cyrillic script so it's easy enough to find music from there as Farsi & Pashto are using different scripts. Plus Tajik music is more closer to Uzbek & Turkmen music than to Afghan & Iranian music. Not to mention that Tajik names are VERY different from the Afghan/Iranian names. Tajik names are pretty long and the surnames have some Soviet influense. However some Tajik singers were featured in Afghan Smart but they are really few as fas as i know. Arabic countries are hard not only because of the language and the high amount of countries who uses it but also because 95% of Arabic songs are really really bad. Also Yemen has probably the most Underdeveloped Arabic music industry (excluding the small countries who are extremely dependent to oil) Yemen is a (forgotten) warzone where the majority of the population is literally starving so music is the last thing in their priorities. It's also the Poorest Arabic country. The even worse thing is the Yemeni diaspora isn't as big as the Syrian & other Arabic diasporas and therefore it's really hard to find songs from Yemeni diaspora. Russian language is not a official Language in Latvia though, same in Ukraine with Russian. Latvia & Ukraine have enough songs in their languages. In fact in the last years it's more common to see Ukrainian singers to sing in Ukrainian than in Russian while in the 00s & early 10s Russian was more common. Also Most singers from EX-soviet have a account on at least 1 social media which they include their homeland/based country in their profiles. The only time which i had this problem is with really obscure singers or singers from Central Asia. If you mean biographies then it's another story, the hosts are not really interested for that, they are just interested if the singer is from X Country. I get your point about it and i understand you about this problem but i personally find the current system more fair because at least the late player will have the choice for the country out of the 2 remaining countries.... Plus elliminating 4 countries is even worse imo.
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